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Thread: Tuning from scratch

  1. #11
    Senior Member cvjoint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErinH View Post
    just matching the left and right response. no real target, per se, but I only make attenuation adjustments. no boosting
    What do you mean by attenuation, no boosting?

  2. #12
    Founding Member pocket5s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErinH View Post
    just matching the left and right response. no real target, per se, but I only make attenuation adjustments. no boosting
    Ok, so rta adjusting between left and right? Do you do this with only one pair at a time or all together?

  3. #13
    Tester Extraordinaire ErinH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pocket5s View Post
    Ok, so rta adjusting between left and right? Do you do this with only one pair at a time or all together?
    I don't boost EQ bands until the veeeerrrrryyyy end, and that's only if really needed.
    Your ears: The best tools you have... and they're free, too!

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by pocket5s View Post
    Ok, so rta adjusting between left and right? Do you do this with only one pair at a time or all together?
    RTA individual drivers to achieve left/right balance. Otherwise you get a wandering stage. And you end up chasing your tail trying to achieve tonality and proper imaging.

    Two-seat is a little more complicated.

  5. #15
    Junior Member sssnake's Avatar
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    I guess I'll have to weigh in on the TA first side. The physical placement doesn't change and IME if you use TA to make adjustments to center the image beyond simple waveform alignment it is because something else is wrong. I have tried that approach before and it seems to kill the perceived output from the side which has extra delay. For example if you add extra delay to the right channel to move the image left the right boundary seems to lose definition for everything except sounds panned hard right.

    The only issue I have had with this approach is with mounting locations that suffer from prominent reflections. However, TA games don't seem to solve those either. EQ seems to help but not enough. The only thing that seems to fix the reflection issue is a new location and/or some room treatment (if the issue is high enough in freq).

    Erin,

    I think that I remember a post from you that stated with proper TA (impulses aligned) your image was a little left. Is this something that is still present? I have that issue in the higher freqs. What I found was a reflection on the left tweet from the dash cluster that required me to reduce the output level of the left tweet to get things to center up. The left tweet needs to be about two db lower than the right for things to work. I tried to fix it with TA but it caused issues with integration to the left mid. It works OK like this but I am looking to move the tweets to the kicks to get away from the dash cluster (this is something that I have tried to avoid because I hate having legs between me and tweets).

    Anyway very good discussion.

  6. #16
    Junior Member sssnake's Avatar
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    One more topic for the discussion...

    Do you guys come back and look at the summed LR freq response after completing independent L and R EQ? I do and I am typically surprised by the result. Areas that I would have sworn would sum flat (because both the independent L and R measurements are flat in the passband) don't in all cases. I assume this is due to varying phase alignment but I can't swear to it. I'm trying a few things to figure out what works best but I am fighting other larger issues right now. Just looking for inputs.

  7. #17
    Founding Member Subwoofery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErinH View Post
    just matching the left and right response. no real target, per se, but I only make attenuation adjustments. no boosting
    Exactly how I did it for my horn setup...

    Match L & R response (did it by ear with test tones)
    Set levels
    Set Xovers (not so difficult with horns when you know when it's too low)
    Use T/A for driver pairs with correlated pink noise
    Use T/A for horns and mids using music
    Add subwoofer and T/A for perfect phase
    Check freq response on RTA for wide bumps in the response
    EQ to taste...

    Like matching L & R before T/A - will be doing it everytime I start over

    Kelvin

  8. #18
    Tester Extraordinaire ErinH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sssnake View Post
    I guess I'll have to weigh in on the TA first side. The physical placement doesn't change and IME if you use TA to make adjustments to center the image beyond simple waveform alignment it is because something else is wrong. I have tried that approach before and it seems to kill the perceived output from the side which has extra delay. For example if you add extra delay to the right channel to move the image left the right boundary seems to lose definition for everything except sounds panned hard right.

    The only issue I have had with this approach is with mounting locations that suffer from prominent reflections. However, TA games don't seem to solve those either. EQ seems to help but not enough. The only thing that seems to fix the reflection issue is a new location and/or some room treatment (if the issue is high enough in freq).

    Erin,

    I think that I remember a post from you that stated with proper TA (impulses aligned) your image was a little left. Is this something that is still present? I have that issue in the higher freqs. What I found was a reflection on the left tweet from the dash cluster that required me to reduce the output level of the left tweet to get things to center up. The left tweet needs to be about two db lower than the right for things to work. I tried to fix it with TA but it caused issues with integration to the left mid. It works OK like this but I am looking to move the tweets to the kicks to get away from the dash cluster (this is something that I have tried to avoid because I hate having legs between me and tweets).

    Anyway very good discussion.
    Yep. Remember our pm chat going on? What I said in the OP about realizing that levels should be matched first really is the culprit. LIke you, I had an issue with a reflection and once I figured it out and corrected it (by simply aiming my right side tweeter just a tad more on axis), I was good to go. I didn't go back and remeasure for T/A but my subsequent ear trials have all turned out the same way: I need to match levels/FR first.

    Quote Originally Posted by sssnake View Post
    One more topic for the discussion...

    Do you guys come back and look at the summed LR freq response after completing independent L and R EQ? I do and I am typically surprised by the result. Areas that I would have sworn would sum flat (because both the independent L and R measurements are flat in the passband) don't in all cases. I assume this is due to varying phase alignment but I can't swear to it. I'm trying a few things to figure out what works best but I am fighting other larger issues right now. Just looking for inputs.
    Yea, I have had that happen a lot. That's why on one of my bullets I mentioned something about going back. When I do invidual alignment, I find discrepencies in the summed (both sides playing) response. I wonder maybe if it's the method (ie: correlated vs uncorrelated) but I don't know. It's something that maybe I can document and we can all discuss.
    Your ears: The best tools you have... and they're free, too!

  9. #19
    Tester Extraordinaire ErinH's Avatar
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    FWIW, I just ordered a bunch of gear for my wife's car. It'll consist of a 2-way + sub and the plan is to run the sub up to 100hz. Her car will have the pioneer 80prs for headunit/dsp, jl xd600/6 running h-audio mids, scan tweeters and a jl 13tw5 sub.
    I'll document the tuning of her car as well as mine so we can have different scenarios. Might be kinda cool to see the differences.
    Your ears: The best tools you have... and they're free, too!

  10. #20
    Senior Member James Bang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErinH View Post
    FWIW, I just ordered a bunch of gear for my wife's car. It'll consist of a 2-way + sub and the plan is to run the sub up to 100hz. Her car will have the pioneer 80prs for headunit/dsp, jl xd600/6 running h-audio mids, scan tweeters and a jl 13tw5 sub.
    I'll document the tuning of her car as well as mine so we can have different scenarios. Might be kinda cool to see the differences.
    If the mids will be door mounted, I'll be following this closely. I've always had trouble with 2-way fronts and door mounted mids. Midrange and midbass seem to never agree with each other on phase and T/A to get a good center. i.e if I want strong midbass, i'd have to sacrifice center image of the midrange and vice versa.

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