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Thread: The Augmented Wideband Approach to Car-Fi: What, Why, and How

  1. #11
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    IMO, with that large a midbass and a 4th order slope there's little benefit to passing more of the load onto the midbass. Unless you regularly hear upper-bass straining.

    Also, is it at all possible to brace the factory midbass enclosure? A simple "+" shaped brace may work wonders for you.

  2. #12
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    I know there is a TSB from Ford that deals with rattle in the Shaker 500 door panels and I am thinking that some butyl rope from Don should solve my problem.

  3. #13
    Founding Member RickVS's Avatar
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    I've used this approach on a couple of occasions now. My favorite so far has been the Aura NS6-255-8A woofer in combination with the Peerless 830970 widebander. I had great luck with this setup in my old Legacy. The widebanders were crossed in the neighborhood of 500hz on what was essentially an open baffle*. I found their response to be more to my liking than the Whispers I used in my STi. However, the Whispers were used in a pair-per-side and were likely suffering from comb filtering, hence the anemic top-end and necessary addition of a tweeter.

    The Aura/Peerless combo is now installed in a friends car and so far, quite a bit of shaping has been required. We tried to get the baffle size as small as possible and in our efforts to minimize attention to the pillars, the drivers ended up being quite a bit off-axis. I would definitely try to get them as on-axis as possible. It's not a drop-in approach, but the results are well worth it (IMO).

    * I'm not suggesting that this will work for everyone. The combination of an open baffle and low crossover point left me pretty limited in terms of output. However, the coherence resulting from limited pointsources was worth the trade off to me.
    Last edited by RickVS; 08-24-2010 at 02:32 PM. Reason: details
    STI<>GTO

  4. #14
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    I added a tweeter to the same Peerless you're running. More just because I wanted to. On-axis there was a bit of nastiness on the top end that was easily EQ'd out, but just for giggles I added a tweeter. There's a distinguishable difference on the top end, but not enough to warrant going through the work of building the passive and adding a tweeter. Active is definitely not worth it just due to cost.

    I might disagree about the crossing a widebander over passively though. It could probably be done with a simple 6 or 12 db slope, and still stay relatively cheap. Caps are cheapish, and the inductor needed wouldn't be that big, and you could do an iron core with no ill effects. The woofer would require a large inductor, but an iron core would probably be fine as well. But it would be no larger than a typical inductor in a home loudspeaker where baffle step needs to be combated. You're looking in the 3.0 mH area. A 6 db on the woofer, and a 12 db on the widebander, and you'd get some decent phase response, and very good power response.

    Here's a relatively inexpensive iron core inductor at PE, that costs $15.00 ea.

    http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=255-112

    Overall, it's a crossover that could be built for under $45.00 per pair. Just kinda have to know what you're doing though.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickVS View Post
    I've used this approach on a couple of occasions now. My favorite so far has been the Aura NS6-255-8A woofer in combination with the Peerless 830970 widebander.
    Any comments about the NS6-255-8A you'd like me to add to the "midbasses" message?

    Quote Originally Posted by MiniVanMan View Post
    I might disagree about the crossing a widebander over passively though. It could probably be done with a simple 6 or 12 db slope, and still stay relatively cheap. Caps are cheapish, and the inductor needed wouldn't be that big, and you could do an iron core with no ill effects. The woofer would require a large inductor, but an iron core would probably be fine as well. But it would be no larger than a typical inductor in a home loudspeaker where baffle step needs to be combated. You're looking in the 3.0 mH area. A 6 db on the woofer, and a 12 db on the widebander, and you'd get some decent phase response, and very good power response.
    I agree that for someone who knows what s/he is doing, the passive approach can work. However, more often than not the midbasses are significantly more efficient than the widebanders. Also, with the smaller widebanders I feel safer (justified or not) with steeper slopes. I know the Whisper strained audibly at ~250Hz, 2d order, but not nearly as much with the slope doubled.

    Also, one should keep in mind that the widebander will usually be considerably less efficient than the midbass. I guess depending on where one crosses, that could be a non-issue, as a passive crossover could give a nice "house curve" through the bass with no effort at all. Both the Harman preferred curve and Audyssey's lift the bass considerably. Especially at lower volumes, in the case of Audyssey's DynamicEQ.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
    Also, one should keep in mind that the widebander will usually be considerably less efficient than the midbass. I guess depending on where one crosses, that could be a non-issue, as a passive crossover could give a nice "house curve" through the bass with no effort at all. Both the Harman preferred curve and Audyssey's lift the bass considerably. Especially at lower volumes, in the case of Audyssey's DynamicEQ.
    Yeah, this issue is going to exist regardless of how you tackle a project like this. Low efficiency and low power handling create a difficult problem. You can cross higher, throw more juice but have some power compression. It's all about tinkering and finding what you personally like best, and are willing to sacrifice.

  7. #17
    Founding Member RickVS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
    Any comments about the NS6-255-8A you'd like me to add to the "midbasses" message?
    I tried to think of something wordy and impressive, but all that comes to mind is all around solid performer. It's really a 6" driver, so I'm sure there are plenty of other drivers out there that will easily trump it in terms of output. But for the ~ $25 a piece that I paid for them I've been way more than pleased. If you're constraints revolve around mounting space and cost, I'd say it's the go-to driver.

    I believe Chad is still using the same driver in a traditional MT setup.
    STI<>GTO

  8. #18
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    Here's what I added about the NS6:

    Aura NS6-255-8
    Spec sheet: http://www.aurasound.com/public/pdf/ns6-255-8a.pdf
    Comments: True 6" (not 6.5" or 7") OEM driver by Aura, sold through Madisound, though they're currently reporting them as out of stock. Extremely reasonable cost. Fits in some Honda doors stock speaker locations where standard 6.5"-7" drivers are too wide. Features Aura's underhung NRT motor for high linearity and mounting flexibility, a stamped basket, paper cone, and foam surround. Notable for its relatively high efficiency (91dB/w/m) and flat frequency response to above 2kHz. RickVS reports this driver as a "solid all around performer," and writes, "if your constraints revolve around mounting space and cost, I'd say it's the go-to driver."

    Comments?

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
    Here's what I added about the NS6:

    Aura NS6-255-8
    Spec sheet: http://www.aurasound.com/public/pdf/ns6-255-8a.pdf
    Comments: True 6" (not 6.5" or 7") OEM driver by Aura, sold through Madisound, though they're currently reporting them as out of stock. Extremely reasonable cost. Fits in some Honda doors stock speaker locations where standard 6.5"-7" drivers are too wide. Features Aura's underhung NRT motor for high linearity and mounting flexibility, a stamped basket, paper cone, and foam surround. Notable for its relatively high efficiency (91dB/w/m) and flat frequency response to above 2kHz. RickVS reports this driver as a "solid all around performer," and writes, "if your constraints revolve around mounting space and cost, I'd say it's the go-to driver."

    Comments?
    Chad's rocking the NS-6 in his Civic.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bassfromspace View Post
    Chad's rocking the NS-6 in his Civic.
    I've been using them for quite some time now and LOVE them compared to the CA18RNX

    Everyone that hears them is quite impressed with them.

    My findings.

    -When crossed above 80 cycles they exhibit VERY low distortion, they literally disappear and have no mechanical noise. they are effortless and I find them uncolored, I don't have to use EQ ;)

    - They take GOBS of power, I did damage one testing it free-air at well over 200W peaks, REAL 200W of of a lab standard amplifier. It knocked a winding off the bottom of the coil. BUT they are not output monsters, they exhibit power compression at high levels (higher than I listen), this is likely due to the tiny motor structure not being able to get rid of heat.

    -It is an OEM driver and really not suited for car use. I scotchguarded the foam surround and paper cone. The front gasket is simply laminated paper and wants to lift quite easily, I'd imagine a car door will compound this problem. What I did was dilute white glue in water and brush it onto the gasket on the sides so it can soak in, THIS made it VERY sturdy.

    -Upon dis assembly of the damaged driver I found the foam surround quite strong and resilient to cutting.

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