Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 31

Thread: Audible Physics XR3M-LE and AR3K Driver Test Discussion

  1. #1
    Senior Member cvjoint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    801
    Real Name
    George

    Audible Physics XR3M-LE and AR3K Driver Test Discussion

    I don't have to be technical do I? haha From what I can tell these drivers will certainly have a signature of their own.

    There is a 4-5db peak in the most sensitive area of our hearing 2-3khz. The FR is generally dropping too which accentuates the audibility. Since there is no impedance kink here the problem may be from that big ole motor, or an incorectly sized phase plug or resonance.

    On the bottom end the QTS is really high which might explain the low end peaking. Even in IB that Q is way to large for my taste.

    The cone break-up seems to be at 12khz for one of the drivers which limits its use to about 6khz.

    I hope the Klippel redeems these drivers.

  2. #2
    Tester Extraordinaire ErinH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,247
    I would advise to be careful of writing off a driver entirely based on the FR. HD results would also be beneficial but I'm not quite set up for that just yet. But, I hope to get the results on Friday.

    Also, I would still urge people to listen to these drivers so you can really understand how what you see affects what you hear.

    Personally, just going off the XR3M response alone, I would take away these things:
    • Lowered response from 200-1khz which might prove to be a smoothed response in this passband
    • The 2khz jump might help to give it some dynamicism
    • Dip @ 8khz should help from sibilance


    HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that what I've said above isn't seen differently by someone else. Prime example: what you posted. We seem to see things differently.

    The end user needs to realize that X characteristic may be driven by X change in response and they need to understand WHAT they like. SQ is subjective much more so than we care to admit.

    The two drivers certainly seem they would have distinct sounds, though. There are stark differences in some of these passbands that, IME, are very crucial to the overall sound of the driver (not to imply that the entire 20-20k range isn't crucial).
    Last edited by ErinH; 04-13-2011 at 03:28 PM.
    Your ears: The best tools you have... and they're free, too!

  3. #3
    Senior Member cvjoint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    801
    Real Name
    George
    Yeah, and tubes sound better because we LOVE 2nd order distortion. Tapes sound good because we simply can't stand a recording that can reproduce 20khz. I can make up stories for every drawback present in my equipment, but why would I want to? No matter how you flip this thing its linear distortion is ...well high. There are 7 inch drivers that have a smoother response, and a QTS that is workable. I'm waiting for that Klippel, I expect no less than 7mm of xmax.

  4. #4
    Tester Extraordinaire ErinH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,247
    Quote Originally Posted by cvjoint View Post
    I can make up stories for every drawback present in my equipment, but why would I want to? No matter how you flip this thing its linear distortion is ...well high. There are 7 inch drivers that have a smoother response, and a QTS that is workable. I'm waiting for that Klippel, I expect no less than 7mm of xmax.
    Certainly, the linear distortion is high. I'm not saying you should or shouldn't buy the drivers. I am saying, however, that unless you've really trained yourself on how certain characteristics affect the sound and just what you like to hear, it's a bit dangerous to presume too much from response graphs alone. Make sense?
    You presented negative viewpoints and I presented to you EXACTLY what I thought when I saw the XR3M-LE performance.
    As far as "flat FR" goes, I hesitate to really jump all over that. I understand why it's stated as preferred (and have the books/papers to cite if needed). The problem is, we all know that most people typically do not have a flat system FR - at least in car audio. Some of the things the XR3M-LE do with no manipulation (aka: EQ) are things I have going on in my system curve right now.
    So, again, it's not a question of what's right or wrong. The data is there for people like you, who apparently know what they want. I just would hate for everyone, especially newcomers, to write off a driver based on the linear distortion alone because it doesn't tell the whole story.

    Additionaly, note that the graph is in 3dB steps. What you see is a blown up representation of the data. What you see in the comparison for 0 and 30* is approximately a +3dB/-6dB response up to 10khz which, as far as I've seen, isn't horrible compared to other driver responses. Here's the 12m tech sheet for reference (chosen because it's widely touted as one of the best midrange drivers out). Make sure to compare apples to apples.
    http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/12m-4631g00.pdf



    Quote Originally Posted by cvjoint
    Yeah, and tubes sound better because we LOVE 2nd order distortion. Tapes sound good because we simply can't stand a recording that can reproduce 20khz.
    Do you have a SOURCE (AES paper or the like) that absolutely quantifies these statements? Serious question. Not found anything myself and no one seems to be able to produce anything that has merit. Typically the question winds up becoming a pissing match.
    Last edited by ErinH; 04-13-2011 at 02:00 PM.
    Your ears: The best tools you have... and they're free, too!

  5. #5
    Senior Member cvjoint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    801
    Real Name
    George
    Quote Originally Posted by ErinH View Post
    • Lowered response from 200-1khz which might prove to be a smoothed response in this passband
    • The 2khz jump might help to give it some dynamicism
    • Dip @ 8khz should help from sibilance


    Quote Originally Posted by ErinH View Post
    Do you have a SOURCE (AES paper or the like) that absolutely quantifies these statements? Serious question. Not found anything myself and no one seems to be able to produce anything that has merit. Typically the question winds up becoming a pissing match.
    ^^^^^

  6. #6
    Tester Extraordinaire ErinH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,247
    I understand what you're saying. I think you're skirting my question, though.

    FR can easily be measured by nearly anyone with a calibrated mic and a computer. Make changes to the EQ and listen to the resultant. Easy enough. Distortion, however, is much harder to capture (how many distortion grahs have you seen and how many have you even produced yourself), therefore, much harder to correlate to X sound quality.

    But, to answer your challenge with something, here's what I already can present without diggin further. I'm sure the two links are very familiar with you:
    Interactive Frequency Chart - Independent Recording Network
    Equal Loudness Curves



    So, is there anything you can provide me/us that correlates various orders of distortion with sound? I see these things thrown around a lot but no one seems to have any data on it. Again, if you have sources that can correlate the data I'd LOVE to see it. If you can't provide anything, then just say it. This isn't a chest-puffing contest; we're here for the same goal and I'm here to help others learn.
    To be honest, the real reason I'm doing HD plots is for myself; I want to listen to a speaker, write down what I hear, then test it. At some point my goal is to simply be able to look at a grpah and know right away what the speaker will sound like (all environment influences aside). I don't think many people can really do that because not many have the ability to do the testing themselves. So, I'm hoping I can help lighten the load within our community by posting my data and then the end user can listen to the driver in their own time and hopefully get a feel for how the data represents what they hear (though the two test/listening setups will always vary). It's really as close as one can get without buying the software/hardware themselves and doing the tests themselves. Which, I will warn you now is quite a money pit (I'm in $1k right now) and is very time consuming (been working on this since last Summer with a 4 month hiatus).


    If you want to get into a pissing match over what I take away from a graph and what you want to take away, then I'm done. TomAto, TomAHto. If you want to discuss the potential for the drivers tested, then I'm game.

    I don't have a bias or tie to the MFG here. He is a friend, but I'm a straight shooter, and furthermore can't lie about the data I obtain (well, maybe I could but it would be a TOTAL PITA to do it). What you see in the results is what I obtained and what I've said is what I see from the results. Much like what you see is different, but could still be valid.
    At the end of the day the person reviewing the figures presented has to know and understand how what they see may affect the sound, but most importantly has to know what they want out of a driver. if they want flat response, then that's what they need to pay attention to. If they like a hot top end, that's what they need to pay attention to.

    Still, though, as I pointed out previously, the LD of most drivers isn't truly flat. Only when you lower the resolution and make it appear that way, does it seem "flat". And, like I also mentioned, I've seen numerous people say that they do not tune for flat and leave it that way; they add their own touches via EQ.

    Hope that explains my position on the above. I'm not going to argue any further points because it's draining. But, I'll be happy to discuss the data.

    - Erin
    Your ears: The best tools you have... and they're free, too!

  7. #7
    Senior Member cvjoint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    801
    Real Name
    George
    What if the mastering engineer already took into account the way we hear things? What if the singer himself strains his vocal cords to accommodate what sounds good? What is your function, as a reproduction engineer only? Is it not to simply reproduce the song the way it was intended to be heard? I certainly think it is. To that extent, given the information you provided us with, I can get a good idea on linear distortion and the required box for this thing. From a pure reference point of view, which I believe should be the reproduction scope, the linear distortion is high and the box requirement is well impossible.

    A good chunk of reference music is non amplified, instruments we can can relate to in a live performance. THis is the kind of material we use as reference even subjectively because we want to reproduce an exact copy. I don't want the speaker manufacturer to tell me what to listen to.

    I dont' care enough to look up tubes or tapes as they are inferior devices in my car for many practical reasons alone.

    The Scan driver you posted has an FR that is + - 2 db from 200hz to 10khz on axis. That is a lot better than the + - 4db on the simplified graph you provided for the tested driver. Now factor in this Scan driver has the worst motor in the lineup by far and that it has TWO times the surface area. Yeah it is a big deal.

    My very first post ended in redeeming by Klippel. I certainly do know nonlinear distortion exists. I'm waiting for your results, but honestly, take the Scan above. Do you honestly think it will have worst BL, CMS, 2nd-6th order distortion?

  8. #8
    Tester Extraordinaire ErinH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,247
    'simplified graphs'?... it's more than what most any mfg would present to you.
    You make a very valid point regarding the engineer. You are absolutely right; we have NO idea what is going on behind the scenes. We could roll with this for days; I agree with some things you say but could counter them.

    As far as using live music as reference, well... that music certainly has an environment that colors the sound just like FR does. IMO, the live music argument is really just as skewed as anything else. But, I'm not going to argue myself in circles here.

    As for the driver 'redeeming' itself, well, I don't know what to say. It is what it is. The task, IMO, is to understand what the results mean. Again, you've not provided me with any insight on HD vs sound, which I have continually asked for. It would certainly be beneficial if we could hammer that one out. Would be excellent, in fact.

    I'm done with the back and forth, though.

    Hopefully you at least can appreciate the fact that I posted the data. It is a bit insulting to have ou call it "simplified" when the format which it was presented to you is pretty much the standard.
    If you can do better, or have input on how to make it better, I'm all ears. But criticism for the sake of it doesn't help me and it certainly doesn't help you unless your goal is just that.


    - Erin
    Last edited by ErinH; 04-13-2011 at 02:57 PM.
    Your ears: The best tools you have... and they're free, too!

  9. #9
    Senior Member cvjoint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    801
    Real Name
    George
    "Simplified", as in "solo" or "clear" in your language. Easy man, I like your work. When you post HD graphs I'll certainly give my input.

    If you decide to quote everything I say in this thread on other forums, I wish it to be complete, as in not out of context. Fair is fair.

    Quote Originally Posted by ErinH View Post


    AR3K at 0 Degrees solo (for clarity):




    - Erin

  10. #10
    Founding Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    61
    Erin,
    This is great data, really appreciate your efforts to post it. I for one think it's an invaluable thing for the DIY community that you are doing. Really excellent!
    Might I suggest the discussion portion of this thread be parsed into a separate thread?

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •