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Thread: Advice needed on Low Powered system

  1. #11
    Senior Member minbari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkZ View Post
    Low(er) xmax woofer for midrange coupled with a subwoofer w/ higher than typical xover point (e.g. 120Hz or higher). Then you can generally find a more efficient midrange speaker, which will also allow you to pair it with a tweeter instead of having to deal with the limitations of a horn.
    cant say i agree with any of that. x-over point above 100 hz in a car causes alot of misbass to play through the subs. this localizes the subs, which is usuualy very annoying. a low xmax midmass? I am not saying you need 12mm of xmax, but a higher xmax means more power handling with less distortion. doesnt mean you have to push it that hard, but its nice to know you can.

    what are the limitations of a horn in your opinion?

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by minbari View Post
    cant say i agree with any of that. x-over point above 100 hz in a car causes alot of misbass to play through the subs. this localizes the subs, which is usuualy very annoying.
    Not if you do it right. Your 7.1 system in your living room probably lowpasses at ~100-160Hz.


    a low xmax midmass? I am not saying you need 12mm of xmax, but a higher xmax means more power handling with less distortion. doesnt mean you have to push it that hard, but its nice to know you can.
    But with 50w on tap, he CAN'T push it hard. So the increase in power handling isn't buying him anything. Lower xmax usually means higher sensitivity.


    what are the limitations of a horn in your opinion?
    There are several. But what I was thinking was that it would be a PITA to deal with, given that he wants to keep things stock.

  3. #13
    Senior Member minbari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkZ View Post
    Not if you do it right. Your 7.1 system in your living room probably lowpasses at ~100-160Hz.
    subs in living rooms are generally in front of you, so that point is moot. (BTW mine low passes at 60hz)



    But with 50w on tap, he CAN'T push it hard. So the increase in power handling isn't buying him anything. Lower xmax usually means higher sensitivity.
    I will agree with that to a point. one example off the top of my head (only because I have them) is the ID x65. xmax is 6mm and has sensitivty of 92dB 1w/1m. handles 125w RMS (by the book) many people run them at 200 watts and have no issues. 50 watts on a pair of those would work very well.

    There are several. But what I was thinking was that it would be a PITA to deal with, given that he wants to keep things stock.
    cant say one way or the other there. installing them against the bottom of the dash only alters the interior a little. 2 screws and they come back out and you would never know they were there.

  4. #14
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    I agree on the subwoofer efficiency point, but not sure if it'll be that critical for mids and tweets. (unless you really like it loud!) I think there are some good (non-pro) paper cone mids that meet your requirements and have plenty enough efficiency to keep most folks happy. Plenty of good options for tweets too. For speakers, what is your budget, your size constraints, and what's your current inclination for where/how you want to place the tweeters? Those factors will probably drive your choice more than any other factor.

  5. #15
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    p.s.- if power is a concern, why not get a new amp or two (or three)?

    Seriously. These days, power is efficient, small in FF, and cheap!

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by minbari View Post
    subs in living rooms are generally in front of you, so that point is moot. (BTW mine low passes at 60hz)
    Most people corner load, which often means behind you (depending on your living room configuration). I wouldn't say they're usually in front. Also, I believe the dolby spec for LFE is 150Hz. HTIB systems usually cross high because people love these stupid satellite speakers.

    Anyway, the point is that you most certainly can go >100Hz in the car. Many of the "old school" EQs and filter settings even gave you the choice of a traditional 80/120Hz setting. The lowpass-at-40Hz phenomenon is relatively new in car audio, and I'd argue it's mostly there because people don't know how to tame the FR of their sub/cabin.

    There's no mechanism in your brain that allows for front/rear localization at such a low frequency. The traditional view of bass being "omnidirectional" holds up pretty well in the absence of other cues. The key is to reduce those other cues.

    I will agree with that to a point. one example off the top of my head (only because I have them) is the ID x65. xmax is 6mm and has sensitivty of 92dB 1w/1m. handles 125w RMS (by the book) many people run them at 200 watts and have no issues. 50 watts on a pair of those would work very well.
    Probably. 6mm isn't that much. By "low", I didn't necessarily mean 1mm. What I mostly meant was to stay away from the idea of running a long throw "midbass" (woofer). Thing will suck up power like it's going out of style.

    cant say one way or the other there. installing them against the bottom of the dash only alters the interior a little. 2 screws and they come back out and you would never know they were there.
    Well, it's up to him. I view it as unnecessary and I personally wouldn't make such a modification. But I'm a stickler.

    Quote Originally Posted by shinjohn
    I agree on the subwoofer efficiency point, but not sure if it'll be that critical for mids and tweets. (unless you really like it loud!) I think there are some good (non-pro) paper cone mids that meet your requirements and have plenty enough efficiency to keep most folks happy.
    I agree with this. However, the biggest mistake people in car audio make is using too low of a HPF point and a woofer that can't handle it. The normal solution to this problem is to either change the filter setting or buy a woofer that CAN handle it. But, if you're limited to 50w, the latter option is probably a bad one.

  7. #17
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    I use 100Hz for my sub, works great for me. Paired with some 5.25" mids it has a decent up front midbass presence.

    I know it's not 120Hz as suggested above, and I have tried that, didn't like it as much, the sub just has so much more output at that frequency than the mids. I could try to tame it with EQ, but I just used 100Hz with steeper slopes instead.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by schmiddr2 View Post
    I use 100Hz for my sub, works great for me. Paired with some 5.25" mids it has a decent up front midbass presence.

    I know it's not 120Hz as suggested above, and I have tried that, didn't like it as much, the sub just has so much more output at that frequency than the mids. I could try to tame it with EQ, but I just used 100Hz with steeper slopes instead.
    Yeah, that's my point exactly. That can be a tough xover point to deal with. If you don't get it just right, then there's hell to pay. You have level AND phase/time to deal with at those frequencies.

    My theory is that people prefer such limited bandwidth on their sub because they can then use the gain as a makeshift EQ.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by minbari View Post
    subs in living rooms are generally in front of you, so that point is moot. (BTW mine low passes at 60hz)



    For Dolby digital, etc the LPF should be off ;)

  10. #20
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    Nobody has asked, but what kind of car? A hatchback is going to perform much differently than a sedan, or SUV. Then it could be a minivan, and then you're just fucked.

    Look at the B&C offerings. With only 50 watts at 4 ohms you'll be looking at 25-30 at 8 ohms. You're starting to push it at that point. Not a lot of headroom if any, no matter how efficient your drivers are. If it's a small vehicle you can probably get away with it just fine. Larger vehicles will leave you wanting more.

    The Aura's that Chad has in his car are pretty nice. They look bottom of the barrel, but they do get at it. Again though, it's a small hatch he's running them in. His 10" sub also runs on only about 250 watts and you definitely know it's there. The Auras do come in a 4 ohm variant.
    Just because you don't understand the data doesn't mean it's not relevant.

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